Art, Literature, and Body Positivity Conversations with Vashti Harrison

Imagine finding a community that not only reads but lives and breathes the stories that reflect your very essence. That's the magic my husband and I aimed to capture when we founded MahoganyBooks 16 years ago. In our latest conversation, New York Times bestselling author and illustrator Vashti Harrison, of the children's book, Big, along with the remarkable White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre, join us to discuss the transformative power of African-American literature. We unpack the significance of accessible Black books and celebrate the role of storytelling in nurturing Black identity. It's not just about pages and ink; it's about recognizing the narratives that affirm our place in the world.

Have you ever considered how the innocence of childhood can be truncated by societal biases? We tackle the heart-wrenching issue of adultification bias, as highlighted in the study "Girlhood Interrupted" from the Georgetown Law Center. Vastie Harrison delves into her personal mission to dismantle these harmful stereotypes through the beauty and intentionality of her art. Our dialogue ventures deep into the creative strategies used in her picture books, aiming to spark a reconsideration of perceptions and empower Black children. Each illustration, each page turn, is a step toward self-definition for young readers and a mirror for adults to reflect upon the impact of their words.

Lastly, our episode embraces the conversation on body positivity, the critical need to challenge anti-fat bias, and the collective effort required for systemic change. We tease future projects that promise to push the boundaries of traditional formats and inspire our young audience, answering their thoughtful questions. Plus, a live drawing demonstration peels back the curtain on the artistic process. Join us for an episode that is as much a tribute to the legacy of African-American literature as it is a call to action, reminding us why Black Books Matter in our society.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, your gateway to the world of African-American literature. We're proud to present a collection of podcasts dedicated to exploring the depth and richness of African-American literature. Immerse yourself in podcasts like Black Books Matter, the Podcast where we learn about the books and major life moments that influence today's top writers, or tune in to Real Ballers Read, where brothers Jan and Miles invite amazing people to talk about the meaningful books in their lives. So whether you're a literature enthusiast, an advocate for social justice or simply curious about the untold stories that shape our world, subscribe to the Mahogany Books Podcast Network on your favorite platform and let African-American literature ignite your passion.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Okay, how y'all feeling? Thank you guys for being patient. I know you got little ones people probably stomachs are growling all that kind of good stuff but we're just excited that you all are here for the end. This is the last stop on her tour and so you guys are in for a treat. So I brought my notes because I want to read both of their details. But again, as Nick mentioned, I'm Ramunda Young.

Speaker 2: 1:16

My husband and I created Mahogany Books 16 years ago. At that time, we had a one-bedroom apartment in Alexandria and a dream to make Black Books accessible no matter where you lived. We knew the power of what it meant to have a Black Book in your household, in your psyche, in your kids' minds. Right, it's important, thank you. It's okay to clap, thank you. And here we are, 16 years later. We have a little one-name, mahogany, who's going to college in the fall. So that's a whole other thing. But we're just excited because every time we do these events, it allows us to connect with you, it allows us to share our vision and our story about what Mahogany Books means and what Black Books means to our communities. Right, a lot of people, a lot of schools, a lot of libraries are like, no, we don't want those books in our spaces. But we're here to say no, we get to choose, right. So I'm not trying to get all political about it, but we're here because we know the importance of what it means to have Black Books accessible. But I'm going to get on because we've been waiting and I know you guys are excited.

Speaker 2: 2:15

So, with our moderator tonight, does anybody know who our moderator is Our conversation? Let me see by show of hands. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know you do. Yeah, dad knows. Yes, our moderator conversation host for this evening is none other than the White House Press Secretary and Assistant to the President, ms Karine Jean-Pierre. Right, so yeah, that's huge, huge, huge, huge. Karine is a long-time advisor to President Biden, having served in senior communication and political roles in the Biden administration, the Biden campaign and the old and in the Obama administration. Prior to her role on the campaign, she served as Chief Public Affairs Officer for MoveOnorg and on NBC and as MSNBC Political and Analyst. Let me get them together. Analyst, please help me. Welcome Ms Karine Jean-Pierre, the official White House President.

Speaker 2: 3:23

And last but certainly not least, right, we have Ms Vastie Harrison here with us. Let's give it up for her Right? Yes, vastie is the number one New York Times bestselling author and creator of Little Leaders, little Dreamers and Little Legends. How many of you have seen those books just yet? I know all of you, plenty. All of you, right? Yes, she is an illustrator and author and she's done books with Lupita Matthew Cherry the book Hair Love, which is also a nice cute little short, cinematic short as well. But she also earned her BA in Virginia I want to read that because my little one is going to school in Virginia, but at University of Virginia and her MFA in film and video from California Arts, where she rekindled a love for drawing and painting. Everybody, please help me. Welcome again Ms Vastie Harrison and Ms Karine Jean-Pierre.

Speaker 3: 4:24

Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for being here. Thank you for you, for your patience and for spending this afternoon with us, this evening. It feels really nice to be able to spend quality time with Mahogany Books, a beautiful Black-owned bookshop here in the DC area, maryland, dc, northern Virginia area, and I've been on tour for this book for two weeks. This is my last stop, so I'm so happy to spend it with you. It feels really good. I don't know, I'm kind of running on films, but it's been really good. I did some school events. I visited with some second graders and third graders this morning and then another group of students, so it's been really, really special to be able to talk about this book with young people and also to talk about it with you all. So thank you, and thank you to the amazing Karine Jean-Pierre for being here.

Speaker 4: 5:20

Yeah, Hi everybody. Oh, you guys look so good. It's so good to see so many faces. Hi, hi, hi. So I have to tell you, my daughter and I read this book last night. It is so good, it is so good. Thank you so much for writing it and I think it needs to be written. I can't wait for you to read from it and for us to ask you all questions. But it is my pleasure to be here. When I was asked to do this, I was like, yes, let's make it happen, and I think it's so important for us to tell our stories, and so, thank you, thank you, thank you. I want to talk about really quickly how we met. So we met in New York, I don't know if you remember.

Speaker 3: 6:09

I absolutely remember. Ok, you tell the story. So we met in, I think, late 2019, only because of, I think, proximity of our, like, essentially, jobs. My publisher is in the Rockefeller Center area and I believe you were in the Rockefeller Center area.

Speaker 5: 6:29

I was doing work at MSME.

Speaker 3: 6:31

MSME and it was lunchtime and we both were in this cafe and I, you know, every time I go up there I always tend to see people and so I do have my eye open like oh, is that Ory Milbur? Oh, is that somebody famous? And I saw you and I said I don't normally reach out to people or normally ask for photos or anything. But I came up and I said I have to tell you I love you so much but my dad is the biggest fan of you and nothing could stop me from telling you that. And I asked for a photo and it just happened that I had just picked up copies of my first.

Speaker 5: 7:06

That's really what I wanted. Yes.

Speaker 3: 7:08

So Little Legends was just about to come out and I had a copy in my bag and I said can I give it to you? And your book had just come out, like that day that week, and you said I'm going to have an event tonight uptown. You should come. And I was like, ok, and you came, I did.

Speaker 4: 7:24

So I asked that question because it's so like full circle how, when I met, you came to my book signing in New York, which was, I think, one of my first, and now, full circle, I'm here to help and lift you up for your book. And you were so kind, you gave me, I think, one or two of them and you signed it for my daughter and I really just appreciate that and I think it's so important because showing this type of sisterhood and love for each other is so important. So thank you all for coming showing her love, thank you.

Speaker 3: 7:59

So the brilliance, the brilliance right here, so anyway if you guys are OK with it, I'm going to read a bit from the author's note. Is that OK? In childhood, ok, well, you guys, here's the secret case. Cover all these beautiful words. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, in childhood, big is good, big is impressive, aspirational. But somewhere along the way the world begins to tell us something different that big is bad, that being big is undesirable.

Speaker 3: 8:36

I was never a dancer, but I did get stuck in a swing when I was younger. Some of the older kids and I were playing on the baby swings and I couldn't get out. I was the only one to get into trouble. My size indicated to adults that I was big enough to know better, even though I was still just a kid. I learned that day that my body did not fit, it did not belong, and adults no longer saw me as a little girl who could make innocent mistakes.

Speaker 3: 9:04

While my experience was far less overt than the one in this book, the thoughts and words at work are the same. A child sits in the crosshairs of adultification, bias and anti-fat bias. She's subjected to judgments and prejudices that are harmful and have lasting effects. Still, she finds enough self-love to return the words that were unkind and unhelpful. I hope she will stand as a guide to all who need to see her journey, especially those of us who are black girls in big bodies.

Speaker 3: 9:34

I remember thinking I couldn't wear pink, that it was too bright a color and might make me stand out. From an early age, I developed insecurities that told me was safer to shrink into the background and try not to call attention to myself. I chose the color palette for this book to reject that old thinking. In color psychology, pink is associated with gentle love, tenderness and nurturing. Pink flowers symbolize innocence, joy, playfulness and happiness. These are all things that this girl deserves. Her body is not a problem that needs fixing, and neither did mine that day on the playground. What needs fixing are the implicit biases we all hold. I wish I could give this girl a hug the part of her that is me and the part of her that might be you and tell her that she is deserving of all the care and joy in the world, no matter what. So that's big Thank you, thank you. Thank you for a supreme storytelling Storytime this was my first time, wow.

Speaker 4: 10:45

So thank you for writing this book. I think it's so important for this book to be written, and one of the things that, as we go into Q&A, that I really wanted to ask you is you're known as a renowned illustrator, someone who, I mean, look, just does beautiful, beautiful art, beautiful illustration. What made you decide that you also wanted to be the storyteller I mean, you're a storyteller, but in a different way but to actually write words. What made you want to do this book?

Speaker 3: 11:19

A couple of different reasons, I think. When I was a young person, I felt really insecure about my writing, and it became a little less insecure when I realized I had a story to tell, and so I got over the fear of sharing, the fear of being, you know, not a perfect writer, of getting the words wrong. So I definitely felt like I had a story to tell. But one of the things that happened when I was working on this first book, little Leaders, is I read this study that came out of the Georgetown Law Center on Poverty and Inequality called Girlhood Interrupted about adultification bias of black girls, and the study found that black girls as young as the age of five are viewed as less innocent and more adult than their white counterparts. And that's all across the board. It's not just from black adults or white adults, it's everyone. Views black girls as more adult, more mature, more responsible, more capable of understanding complex materials, and it results in people treating and believing that they need less nurturing and care. And it trickles down into so many worse things, including people believing that they understand sexual topics at an earlier age, and it results in them receiving harsher punishment. And I felt so heartbroken by this study and I feel like I don't have much control in this world.

Speaker 3: 12:55

I don't have much power in this world, but I can make art and if I can make characters that make people say, oh my gosh, I love them, I want to hug them, I want to care for them, then I'm gonna keep doing that. So part of the reason little leaders I could have illustrated these people to look like themselves. Instead, I created a kid character that I wanted to feel really sweet and adorable, just to encourage people to believe that black kids are deserving of that nurturing and care. So that desire to share that story and talk about body size as a metric for adultification bias was kind of that seed was planted, probably around 2017. And I felt like I had given a lot of my creative self to illustrating lots of books like Hair, love and Sewolwe, and I felt like I wanted to add my own perspective on these characters that I'm creating in the world. So, as much as I felt, I still feel insecure about the words on the page, the illustration, the idea of the character, of the character feeling boxed in and trapped.

Speaker 4: 14:05

That was with me from a really early point and that's one thing about the book what that I found was so beautiful and shows your amazing talent as an illustrator that middle part of the book where it shows her just having all these different emotions but also getting bigger and bigger, and then that fold that we had to do opened up. What made you think about that. You clearly leaned into the illustration. Is that like the visual part of you that you wanted to share?

Speaker 3: 14:37

Yeah, the way I kind of describe it. Often people tell me your work is so luminous, how does it glow like that? How do you create that magic? And I always tell them well, you can't have light without dark, and so you have to have these shadows to make things feel bright. And that's sort of metaphorically, what this story is.

Speaker 3: 14:57

I had this drawing, the idea of this kid feeling trapped, and I wondered well, how did she get there and how can she break free from that?

Speaker 3: 15:04

So when you start with this super dark moment, it's really a storytelling kind of puzzle to figure out. Well, how can she break free? So early on I knew I wanted to see her make more space for herself and eventually that led to me kind of thinking a little bit more about the book as a storytelling device on its own, to physically use words on the page as story elements, to use the gutter and the shape of the book as a story element and to eventually create a gatefold. Initially I wanted her to push up kind of in this powerful power pose. Apparently that's impossible with the way that books are produced, but I feel like this was an interesting creative challenge to figure out a way to make it work and it feels like a little bit weird, a little bit Alice in Wonderland-y, which I appreciate that she sees the book for what it is and this is her story, so she can take control of it and make more space for herself.

Speaker 4: 16:06

I have to tell you, when I read this, when my daughter and I were reading the story, that was the part of the story where she was like, oh wow, when it opened up and you saw the freedom, or the punching out, if you will, and it really grabbed her. That was the part of the book that she was really into and it grabbed her. The other piece of the book, as I said, I was reading it with my eight-year-old and it connects. It feels like it doesn't matter how old you are. This book connects. It's ageless in many ways. It connects with an eight-nine-year-old, maybe younger, and someone certainly older. And was that done purposely as well? Like what was your thinking process?

Speaker 3: 16:48

Yes, I think initially, whenever I'm creating, I'm usually creating for myself. But once I realized that this could be a book, a picture book, I knew that my main audience would be children. So I really tried to think about well, what's the message that I want for children here? And so I feel like the book works on multiple levels. On one hand, I really want adults to look at this book and think, oh, wow, maybe the words that I say to kids are going to affect them. I don't know what's going to stick with them. But I also want kids to know that they don't have to let anyone's words define them, that they get to decide who they are. So I think initially I was just creating to create.

Speaker 3: 17:29

But I think an important part of the picture book making process is thinking about the kid reader and I also want to make sure it's a book that kids will want to go back to and will find a few new things each time, maybe see a reflection of themselves in that character or be able to just feel this empathy, feel this connection to her feelings. Because in the school visits I ask kids have you ever felt really, really big feelings that you just don't know what to do with, and all of them raise their hands because there's something there for everybody, even if they are not girls, even if they have never experienced this sort of body shaming. But the kids have this extreme sense of justice, so sometimes they'll just be like what, why are they saying such mean things? So I feel like I'm so grateful to know that kids are just so it's an interesting generation.

Speaker 4: 18:21

This generation is very, they're very much about justice and speaking out. As I mentioned, I have a little one and it's very interesting to watch her and her peers. The other question that I had for you with body shaming and you hear about even famous people dealing with body shaming in this time, in this kind of era that we're in, is there a message, Like what is the message you would say to young people right now, especially in this moment that we're in, as you've written this book, as you're going around talking to second graders and third graders and clearly talking about their big feelings?

Speaker 3: 19:04

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I want them to know is that I tried to use color in an interesting storytelling way in this book. I feel like I chose this color pink to represent this character and we see it getting brighter and brighter as she is kind of figuring out who she is, how she's developing and how she's changing. And we see that light get dimmed by other people but we see it come back because, amazingly, she finds the power and the self-love to find her way there. And I, especially for young people, I just want them to know that you're changing, your body is changing. It's OK. You get to decide who you are and you are still figuring that out and that's perfectly fine.

Speaker 3: 19:44

There are going to be people who have unkind things to say, but you don't have to let that define you. And I know that there are more conversations to be had about anti-fat bias in our society. But I think what I specifically want for kids is to not have to think about that. What I want for us as adults is to think about the words that we use for young people. But in some cases some people have talked to me.

Speaker 3: 20:08

They've said well, your book is about body positivity and I kind of reject that a little bit, because body positivity tends to suggest your own choices about how you feel about your body and it suggests well, if I just think more positively about it, it's going to make things better, and maybe it will in some cases. But that doesn't negate the fact that anti-fat bias is bigger than that. It's beyond individual mindsets and individual people being mean. It refers to systemic prejudice and discrimination in our society, from medical disparities to employment disparities. So I feel like what I would like to dismantle is not how we think about ourselves, but rather how society as a system works. Just dismantle all of that, no big deal, with one book.

Speaker 4: 21:01

All with one book the power of illustration and writing. Do you have any other books in mind that you want to preview for us that you're thinking?

Speaker 3: 21:11

I don't, I don't know. I would like to make something a little bit longer, something highly illustrated and a little bit longer. So I don't really have any great examples or comps for that. So I'd like to kind of experiment a little and maybe make some things that are not so personal. But there's another hair love book coming out later this year. It's a board book, so it's an ABCs of hair, which was very fun to work on and, yeah, anything else. No, I am deadline free for a while, which feels really good.

Speaker 4: 21:44

That's nice. Yeah, that's nice. Ok, I know some folks may have some questions out there. You want to open it up. I can come down.

Speaker 5: 21:51

Yeah, we'll do two questions.

Speaker 3: 21:53

OK, signing. Ok, is it OK if I do my drawing demonstration and answer questions? Can we take five minutes for drawing and then transition to signing? Ok, all right. Oh wait, what are we doing? So I'm just going to get started with my drawing and then I will multitask. How's that sound?

Speaker 4: 22:13

First step when you get this out of the way, the brain's out of the way.

Speaker 3: 22:31

So I'm just going to be sketching with some crayons here. These are artist crayons, so they're highly pigmented, so we're kind of late and I map out my character, sort of with shapes that we're all familiar with circles and squares and triangles and so I just sketch all of that out and then I start adding the details on top of it, and while I do this I can answer questions. So if anybody wants to either shout out a question, I'll do two.

Speaker 2: 23:02

I see one right here. Do we need a mic over? Good, I want to do this. Do you come out the aisle? I don't think so.

Speaker 4: 23:10

Take your time, take your time. I got two right here. Take your time. Take your time. You know we've got you two. Thank you, all right, let us know your name.

Speaker 1: 23:20

My name's Ava. I'm 11. 11. All right, would you ever consider making a graphic?

Speaker 3: 23:26

novel. Ooh, would I ever consider making a graphic novel? So that was kind of what I was hinting at when I say I want to make something a little longer and highly illustrated. But one thing about me is I don't love panels. I don't like too much information on a page. So I want to create something that feels like a graphic novel but doesn't look like a graphic novel. So I feel like I would be creating something brand new. Hopefully I can take some time and work on that, but graphic novels take a long time, so hopefully, I can get started soon.

Speaker 3: 24:02

Great question.

Speaker 4: 24:03

OK, all right, thank you so much, hello. What is your name and how old are you?

Speaker 5: 24:09

My name's- Karina and I'm 10.

Speaker 4: 24:12

Yeah All right, that's a cool name.

Speaker 5: 24:14

So my question is what made you want to make a book?

Speaker 3: 24:18

about your body. What made me want to make a book about my body? That's a great question. No one's asked me that yet in this entire tour, I feel like part of what made me want to talk about it were these really big feelings that I felt like I couldn't escape, about feeling like there was something wrong with me or that I should always be trying to change myself, and that feeling of the character being boxed in is something that I felt and I feel like, wow, I'm still working towards figuring out how to process these feelings.

Speaker 3: 24:55

I want to give kids the tools that I didn't necessarily have when I was a kid, when I was younger. To say these words hurt me, and I would like for you to take responsibility for that. To say I'm always going to be changing and that's not going to define who I am. I could be kind and sweet and caring, I can be an artist, I can be a musician, but the size of my body does not have to define me, and so what I want for kids to know is that it doesn't matter what you look like. It doesn't matter what your body looks like, what it can or cannot do, what color it is. None of those things have to define who you are.

Speaker 3: 25:37

So I think part of why I needed to write this story was to hear myself say all of these things that I would like for you to know that any negative words about your body have to define who you are, because you're not that thing. You are you. So that's what I was going for. I hope it was successful. That's the best question. Very good question, thank you. Thank you Actually since you're drawing you have time for one more.

Speaker 3: 26:08

Yes, I'm happy I have one more, one more question and I can do rapid fire. Ok, all right, ok.

Speaker 4: 26:16

Here you go.

Speaker 6: 26:17

It's OK, there you go. Good evening, love to show, hi, hi.

Speaker 3: 26:22

Hello, right here. Oh, there you are, ok Hi.

Speaker 6: 26:24

I'm Tracy. I'm a retired elementary school teacher after 30 years and I absolutely love and adore children's books, especially by black authors with black characters, and my first recollection of my favorite book as a kid was the Snowy Day, because that was the first time I saw myself, even though Peter is a boy. I'm curious to know in your visits to schools, did you have any girls or boys that shared a similar story or found or were able to vocalize to you that they feel the same way about being big?

Speaker 3: 27:10

You know, I don't think anyone has said so in such explicit ways, because I think it would have made them feel kind of put on the spot.

Speaker 3: 27:19

But I was at a school today where if you agree with something, someone says you do this. And the kids were doing this a lot when I said, has anyone ever had these really big feelings? Has anyone ever said unkind words that you wish you could just give back? And so I think a lot of people, a lot of the kids, are feeling seen, and sometimes I'll hear them say, you know, like well, why are they saying that? But I can tell that there are some kids who are at least connecting to the character and so I feel that, you know, I hope that it's connecting with them, but I wouldn't want to put anyone on the spot to talk about it in front of the kid, in front of everybody else. But yeah, I think they have.

Speaker 6: 28:04

I think this is a especially great book to talk about this at all levels. I've taught kindergarten through eighth grade and I really feel like this book would be a really good conversation starter or a journal piece for upper elementary students in early middle school, because even though they're older and age, they still kind of have those same conversations and a little less maturity in some ways, and I think this would be amazing. So I'm sharing this book with all the kids in my family.

Speaker 3: 28:37

Thank you, thank you so much, thank you for your work. Thank you. Okay, I can do one more minute of drawing, one more. You're gonna have to come this way. I'm gonna keep drawing for one more minute, all right.

Speaker 4: 28:56

Sorry. No, I'm sorry, but I really feel like you know what.

Speaker 5: 29:01

Pleasure. Thank you so much. Good evening. My name is Randall Holloway. I'm from Holloway Ventures. I'm also an associate of Alexandria City Public Schools and my question to you as an art teacher is what's an inspiring message you would give to young, upcoming traditional artists who don't understand or believe art as a career and generally are told that art isn't a real job?

Speaker 3: 29:32

That's a great question. Well, I would, for one, any young person that is interested in drawing. I feel like the only thing I can tell you is if you love drawing, you just have to keep practicing. You have to practice the things you love, the things you hate, and I love learning new tools and figuring out well, how do I draw differently when I use crayons versus how I draw when I use pencils or digital tools? For me, I think the more you experiment and try all of these things, you will learn more and more about yourself as an artist. And sometimes people ask me well, what do you like better? Working digitally, working traditionally? And I always tell people there's no difference. For me, I'm an artist, I'm the artist. The tool is not the artist. So I get to communicate new ideas through different tools, and that's the thing I love the most. So I would recommend any young person who's interested in art to just practice, practice, practice.

Speaker 3: 30:31

It's like there's a quote from this guy, walt Stanchfield, who was an educator at the Walt Disney Studios, and he said we all have 10,000 bad drawings inside of us. The sooner we get them out, the better, and what I love about that is it suggests like the bad drawings are not a part of you. You just have to get them out, and every artist has to get them out. Once you do that, once you practice hard enough, sometimes it'll still be hard, but it won't be so overly consuming Like ugh, I messed up a hand, but you'll just be able to move past it so much faster than you used to and you know pursuing it as a career. I appreciate being able to just make art and not think about it being a career. Sometimes I create a little bit more freely when I know it's just for myself. So I will say that there's so much value in just making art for you for a while.

Speaker 3: 31:26

But there are absolutely careers in art and I think I wish I had known about so many of these things when I was growing up, especially writing and illustrating children's books, but also people in like the Little Leaders books, like sculptors and filmmakers all of these different means of communication exist. I think something that unlocked art for me was making experimental films, and I wouldn't have been able to make illustrations in the same way if I hadn't gone to film school. So I will say that experimenting with other tools and other medias are a super helpful way to learn about yourself as an artist. So I'm drawing really fast and I'm trying to not be in the way, so it might be a little bit kind of squashed on the side, but I'm gonna end there and every time you finish your drawing you can just sign it and say thank you for watching. Thank you all, thank you, thank you, thank you and we're gonna transition to signing. So Ramunda is gonna give us some information.

Speaker 2: 32:29

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Please give it up again for one more time for Vashi Harrison and our amazing moderator, Ms Karine.

Speaker 1: 32:37

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